


Double Standards in the Fujocourse

by Franzeska



Series: March Meta Matters [22]
Category: Fandom - Fandom
Genre: Gen, Meta, Nonfiction
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2017-01-28
Updated: 2019-11-11
Packaged: 2021-02-26 15:41:02
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 11
Words: 4,809
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/23269699
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Franzeska/pseuds/Franzeska
Summary: This collection of tumblr meta covers double standards in fujoshi (slash fangirl) discourse, including fandom's reception of drag queens vs. fujoshi, ignorance of cis gay men's erotica, and blaming slash fanfic for things that are equally true of het.
Series: March Meta Matters [22]
Series URL: https://archiveofourown.org/series/1664836
Kudos: 3
Collections: March Meta Matters Challenge





	1. "dollop", right...

**Author's Note:**

> Uploaded for day 22 of the March Meta Matters Challenge.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: January 28, 2017.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/156505881649/mob-zombie-every-time-someone-makes-a-post-about

[mob-zombie](http://mob-zombie.tumblr.com/post/156055612725/every-time-someone-makes-a-post-about-how-women):

> Every time someone makes a post about how women are normalising abuse in gay men’s relationships through slash fiction I just want to link them to all the male dominated archives.
> 
> Like fandom activities like fanfiction are female dominated due to the nature of how most men typically engage fandom vs how most women typically engage it, so I understand entirely when someone’s primary exposure to smut about gay men is through fandom, giving the impression that only women are producing it.
> 
> But no, men write a shit load of porn just fine on their own in other corners of the internet, and it’s honestly the exact same content but with more needlessly specific measurements and an extra dollop of non-con.

The only way Nifty.org is like fanfic but with an extra dollop of non-con is if “dollop” means “flood of biblical proportions”. ;D

Even in the kinkiest fic fandoms, I don’t usually see so much mind control, amputation kink, blatantly racist fetishizing of black guys, forced feminization and sex changes, constant misogynist/transphobic/homophobic dirty talk, knocking all of a victim’s teeth out to make them a better living sex toy, violent bestiality, dehumanization, actual pedo stories about prepubescent children (as opposed to teenagers like tumblr misuses the word to mean), or snuff. There’s also less dick measuring and fewer descriptions of B.O. and body hair, but those things are the tip of the iceberg, really.


	2. it’s not particularly more guilty of those things than het or genfic

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: February 3, 2018.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/170471591369/the-thing-that-i-really-object-to-in-how-tumblr
> 
> I routinely get sotto voce tag commentary on my meta that looks like this crap. Since I took a screencap, I don't know which post it was on, but it was likely one of my other big slash meta pieces already uploaded for March Meta Matters.

[ ](https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/image/170471591369)

The thing that I really object to in how Tumblr talks about slash is that it’s like prefacing every Hannibal/Will squee post with “PSA: This ship is unhealthy!”

Slash can certainly be misogynist, racist, and even homophobic. But it’s not particularly more guilty of those things than het or genfic. Professionally published romance novels have all of the same issues, even the f/f ones. Every time we talk about slash, we feel the need to mention these problems as though they’re a property of _slash_ as opposed to a property of romance plotlines or of media or of society.

Over time, this has led to the rise of a meme on tumblr–in the original sense, not the fandom sense–that slash is something to feel guilty about. Not just a guilty pleasure: something dirty and a source of genuine shame because it’s the source of oppression and problematic content in fandom.

How often do we tag posts about het with ‘BTW, het is problematic, but I like the rest of this’? Even concern trolling about the effects of Twilight usually posits the problem as _Twilight_, not stories about heterosexuality.


	3. Call Me By Your Name discourse is remarkably homophobic

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: May 7, 2018.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/173668549799/re-cmbyn-anon-what-studentteacher-relationship
> 
> Antis responded to Call Me By Your Name in a stereotypical "the gay men prey on the children" way while pretending to hold the moral--and pro-queer--high ground. It disgusts me.
> 
> A lot of people were pushing back against them without having seen the film. They all assumed that Oliver showed at least one particle of dominance or assertiveness ever. Antis _already_ sound homophobic, but if you've actually seen the film, their claims are _laughable_.

**Anonymous asked: Re: CMBYN anon, what student/teacher relationship? What power dynamics problem? The older guy was a foreigner employed by the younger guy's father. The older guy. They had different intellectual pursuits and were intelligible in those fields. Like, I get being irked by the "huge" age gap, but the relationship was hardly a mentor/mentee one.**

[fozmeadows](https://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/173666890011/re-cmbyn-anon-what-studentteacher-relationship):

> I’ve not seen the film, but I’ll take your word for it. I think the general complaint I’ve seen along those lines is more in terms of, uh, sexual mentorship, in that one party is experienced and the other isn’t? But either way, I’ve seen nothing whatsoever to say it’s non-consensual. 

I see this come up constantly, so, for what it’s worth, what _actually_ happens in CMBYN is this:

Elio, an intellectually precocious 17-year-old who is the main character and clearly the one the audience is supposed to identify and sympathize with, moons over Oliver, a hot 24-year-old grad student who’s doing some sort of internship for Elio’s professor father for the summer. When I say “moons over”, I mean he glares at him when he’s looking and gazes dopily at him when he’s not and sneaks into his room to masturbate while sniffing his clothes.

After weeks of trailing after him like a creeper and being read a story by his mom all about how you should just man up and say what you feel, he finally confesses his feelings. (Yes, his mom tries to set them up, not that he realizes it.) Oh, this is in between him starting a relationship with a girl his own age and then ditching her after they have sex, BTW. So, yeah, he hasn’t fucked a guy before, but it’s not like Oliver has to explain how his dick works.

Anyway, he confesses, and Oliver first says it’s a bad idea, then eventually gives in. He admits it’s mutual, but Elio acted so weird earlier in the film when he tried to give him a massage, that he assumed his attention wasn’t welcome, so he backed way off.

Then, when they have sex, Oliver keeps delivering these speeches about “Are you sure? I want this to be a good experience for you. I don’t want you to regret this.” (More or less literal quotes.) I swear to god, this movie has like 2000% more asking for verbal confirmation of ongoing consent than anything else I’ve ever watched. I guess Oliver sticking it in is ~super important~ in fandom terms, but the movie never suggests that these characters attach any importance to penetration. There’s nothing about roles or whether it’s masculine or not.

Later, Elio is being a brat, so Oliver gets him hard, then leaves him hanging. Because he is a ridiculous teenager, he goes and jacks off into a peach. (There’s a peach orchard on the property.) Oliver shows up, starts blowing him, does this double take at the taste, and tries to eat the peach while laughing at him. It’s both gross and hilarious.

At the end of the summer, the parents let them go away for the weekend together where they have some more sex and a lot of feelings. Oliver leaves like he was always going to. Months later, on the phone, he reveals that he was engaged to a woman the whole time, and he’s getting married. Elio is depressed about this. The relationship doesn’t fuck him up because of bad treatment or an age difference or anything. He was just hoping for something long term and doesn’t get it. (In the book, he’s still hung up on the guy decades later, but we don’t see that in the movie.)

Oh, and his dad gives him a pep talk about how most people never find such a perfect connection, blah blah blah. (So both parents knew about it the whole time, apparently. And they clearly were also hoping it would be long-term.)

It’s the exact same formula as every other nostalgic summer coming of age movie except with way more verbal consent, way more supportive parents, and way more homophobic backlash. It isn’t even that explicit. We saw more dick in Maurice in _1987_. Hell, we saw more dick in A Room with a View!

Let’s be clear here: Antis’ response to this movie _is_ straight up homophobia.

They’re looking at a tame art film by a gay director where the younger character is over the age of consent in the location the story is taking place, is played by an actor over the age of consent, is clearly supposed to be a self-insert for the audience (the subject, not the object of the camera’s gaze), and is the sexual aggressor… And over this, they’re screaming “pedophilia”. There are plenty of valid complaints you could make about this film and discussions around it. For example:

  * Holy fuck, why is it so long? Step up that editing in the last third, guys.
  * Why is there no male full frontal? Isn’t that kind of prudish for an art film in 2018? (A criticism made by James Ivory, as it happens.)
  * Why do so many people talk about this as a “gay” film about “gay” characters when the protagonist is bi?
  * Why are characters like Elio always such jerkfaces to the women they sleep with?
  * Isn’t Armie Hammer kind of old to be playing that grad student?
  * Why didn’t the director cast queer actors?

“The director is a pedo!” is not one of these. Granted, the lead is a fantastically good actor, so he’s able to give Elio an authentically awkward teenage physical presence, but the dude was 21 when they filmed it.

Sorry to go off, but the anti-CMBYN rhetoric on tumblr goes beyond even the usual anti disgustingness. They are directly conflating being a gay man with being a pedophile.


	4. Male Friendship Is Not In Danger

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: August 30, 2018.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/177572921469/writer-this-is-one-of-my-male-characters-he
> 
> This was a response to a long reblog thread. The original was about how Tumblr always takes good male friendships, turns them gay, and then gets mad at canon's writers for not agreeing.
> 
> That post was obnoxious, but what was really bad were all of the reblogs full of "delicious tea" gifs and tearful tributes to the rare and precious ~healthy male friendship~ that art Just Doesn't Appreciate. Bullshit like this was everywhere: 
> 
> _"Healthy male friendships are almost as rare in mainstream fiction as gay male relationships, and maybe more rare in fanfiction. Let men be wonderful friends without pushing a romantic relationship, just like men and women should be able to be wonderful friends without the pressure of a romantic relationship."_
> 
> Bitch, are you for real?!
> 
> Many of these rebloggers have bios talking about how they accept any pronouns or they support feminism or whathaveyou. They were a fairly standard collection of tumblr fandom people, meaning that their overt political/social views and mine are fairly similar.
> 
> The OP was a Christian fundamentalist homophobe.
> 
> This is not a surprise. Except to tumblr fandom.

> midsummerjay:
> 
> “healthy male friendships are rare in mainstream fiction” lol since when???? are we trying to say there are more healthy female friendships than male friendships in mainstream fiction?? that would require a majority of media to include more than one (1) female character sdlkjfsdlkfj
> 
> we don’t need to drag young women for shipping men instead of letting them be friends. 99% of fiction through all of time has been focused on men and relationships between men. if men have a problem “expressing friendship”, that’s because they’re socialized to be competitive, violent, and uncommunicative, not because teens on the internet like to imagine fictional characters kissing. 

Well said!

Honestly, the entire history of Western art is devoted to promoting male friendship.

Male friendship is held up as the single purest, most epic emotional bond that exists. Our canon (in the non-fandom sense) is rife with this. Most of our most popular modern media is this. We’ve been churning out male buddy movies since movies were a thing. Our great literature is a catalog of men having intense–but definitely no homo! HDU imply otherwise!–feelings.

**Male friendship is in no danger.**

* * *

So why would they be defending something that needs no defending? This behavior should set off warning bells to anyone reblogging a post. The original poster was, according to a bunch of reblogs, someone who had religious anti-gay shit all over their blog.

**OP is a homophobe. This is not a surprise.**

I know that tumblr falls for the fujocourse easily: “Women oversexualize gay men!” Yadda yadda. A lot of people espousing those views are young queer women who think they’re doing something positive.

The reality is these posts come with a nasty subtext that you learn to spot once you’ve been in fandom for a while.

“Why can’t they just be friends” is the constant refrain of every religious homophobe and uptight straight fanboy any time a character is made canonically gay. Mainstream audiences are horrified when gay coding is pointed out to them and will go to hilarious lengths to deny that it exists. Whenever you see a ‘why can’t they just be friends’ argument about something gay–fanon or canon or anything–you should be suspicious.

* * *

Tumblr does like to over-apply the term ‘queerbaiting’ and to see gay coding where none was intended and people outside of tumblr, including queer media scholars, would generally not see any. (It’s possible for coding to be unintentional, such as when villains have stereotypical villain traits that are also stereotypes of gay people.) But it’s still a real thing. Here’s the prototypical Swiss Watch scene from Red River if anyone needs an example of what actual gay coding looks like:

You’ll see old homophobes trying to deny the really obvious gayness of old movies like that. You’ll see young homophobes in denial about Black Sails.

A canon like The X-Files that starts with a male-female buddy pair who TPTB said they would _never_ get together will, with enough installments, end in het romance. Asking “why can’t they just be friends?” about a man and woman is in a context where they usually _can’t_, by fiat.

Asking “Why can’t they just be friends?” about two men is in a context where thousands of homophobes ask this about every gay thing that ever crosses their path. We are bombarded by this question, inside of fandom and out, for canon ships and ones that only exist in fanworks or in an enthusiastic tumblr post.

**It is not a neutral question.**

* * *

One target of this discussion is fans who ask for their ship to be made canon or their favorite character to be confirmed queer in canon. I agree that demanding things from the canon creators can be rude. However, this has been a thing with straight ships for decades. Fans of straight ships have been far worse about this for far longer, yet tumblr is not full of callout posts for them. There is a double standard that asking for more straight characters and relationships is normal, but asking for more gay characters and relationships is problematic.

**This is reason #1 why the post is homophobic.**

* * *

OP seems to be addressing fans who interact with canon’s writers, but those fans are few compared to all of the fans who make fanworks or just reblog shippy posts on tumblr. The way that OP refers to tumblr collectively and refers to these practices as extremely common makes it clear that they are talking about _shipping in general_, not just people harassing canon creators.

Thinking that the majority response to anything is “It’s gay!” is only possible if you’re cloistered in a tiny tumblr/AO3 bubble. The majority of people who watch a TV series or a Marvel movie do not think this. Even in fanworks fandom, the majority of works are very likely het. This is because AO3 represents only one part of fanworks fandom, a part that skews very heavily towards m/m content. The venerable fanfiction.net has lots of het and gen compared to AO3. Wattpad, which dwarfs AO3, is overwhelmingly het.

When someone comes to AO3 or Tumblr to whine about m/m, it’s like posting hate in the tags: You’re mad that there’s _even one place_ where that content is popular.

**This is reason #2 why this post is homophobic.**

* * *

OP also suggests that _shipping_ characters is equivalent to assuming things about their canonical orientation. Some parts of fandom are very into their ships and their headcanons being validated by actual canon. Lots of us don’t care. We ship characters who have a strong emotional bond in canon or whom we find attractive or whose dynamic we happen to like.

The idea that shipping is inherently about the canon’s writer or a writer-fan interaction and not about fans having fun in their own way in their own space is nonsense. OP knows this perfectly well.

They are suggesting that any writer would be offended by fans “misinterpreting” a character as gay. Often, that’s true: _because many writers are homophobic just like OP,_ but that doesn’t mean we need to validate such attitudes.

**This is reason #3 why this post is homophobic.**

* * *

Beware, tumblr. I know you guys like to think you’re fighting the good fight and protecting fragile mlm from ravening fujoshi strawomen, but the fact is that posts like OP’s come with nasty baggage attached.

99% of Western culture is about celebrating the nonsexual bonds between men. Again, male friendship is in no danger. M/M shipping does not promote toxic masculinity, but…

**Agreeing with this shit promotes homophobia and misogyny too.**


	5. We unconsciously rate m/m higher

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: December 3, 2018.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/180771413179/rex-luscus-rex-luscus-rex-luscus-well-im
> 
> This was part of a reblog chain on a post asking:
> 
> "Well I’m curious what folks who enjoy adult fanworks but condemn the OTW think about them now"
> 
> The discussion was about how "no nsfw" rules always have unintended consequences and are not applied evenly.

I know I’m a broken record here, but I’ll say it again (and again):

Because society is generally shit–homophobic, sexist, you name it–many people _unconsciously and genuinely_ find m/m content or a woman having a realistic orgasm to be far more edgy/transgressive/explicit than equivalent content that is ye olde misogynist porn for straight dudes. Same with consensual kink. Same with most f/f that’s aimed at queer women. Even if Tumblr reviewed every case by hand, we would still be up against this cultural problem.

OTW’s rules look like they do because the best way to protect m/m, even fluffy, unproblematic m/m, is to have extremely permissive content rules. The same goes for other content for queer and/or female audiences.

The most vulnerable demographics get hit hardest and first.


	6. BL isn’t the important factor

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: December 29, 2018.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/181539341554/i-really-enjoy-your-posts-and-i-was-meaning-to-ask

> Anonymous asked: I really enjoy your posts and I was meaning to ask you this, but what do you think of people who always aggressivily blame straight women who are into bl of misogyny for female characters getting hate? This argument has been vivid toxic around tumblr and for fandoms for around 10 years and it's still fatigued at least for me to engage in it because just of how, manipulating it is? In my experience most of the female characters who were bashed had always some serious problem writing problem-
> 
> sorry for multiple ask- and even then, i’ve seen plenty of male characters getting hate for being a potential rival to another ship. I can cite multiple cases and fandom who are around this but somehow it’s always gathering to straight women being misogynistic because they are angry or jealous at fictious characters. It’s such a spiral because one group calls the other misogynist while enganging in misogynist behaviour and not realizing it.

I’ve seen this dumb shipwar… err… fascinating debate raging since I first got into fandom in the 90s. I’m sure it existed long before that.

It’s convenient to blame women–straight women if you can’t get away with blaming all women. The idea that it actually has anything to do with women or with BL is absurd.

There’s no hate for a female character more virulent than when she gets in the way of the “correct” canon het. Men spew it too. People who like canon het spew it. People who hate the canon ships because they want some other ship of whatever gender combination spew it. Hatred for female characters pops up all over; it’s not confined to one sort of “die for our ship” dynamic.

There _is_ a style of slash fic where the canon love interest is an evil harpy. It’s the spiritual sister of those romance novels where the heroine has ~character~ and the evil, vapid harpies around her aren’t awesome enough to appreciate her. Anita Blake is a vast sea of het and no homo, but it’s one of the worst offenders. Based on how bonkers crazy that author is and how obviously the lead is a self-insert, it actually _does_ sound like she’s jealous, but it’s not always so clear that there’s a connection between the author’s feelings and that portrayal of a female character.

A lot of fanfic writers are just weak writers who can’t write an interesting villain or believable conflict. It’s not really different from one random canon dude being selected as the default Homophobic Obstacle Friend in slash fic. It’s such a cliche, I can probably name who it was for any given Harry Potter pairing. (Ron for H/D. Sirius when Remus was shipped with anyone other than him. James for any gay Sirius ship not including him. etc.) It’s just a cliche that crops up in samey writing.

Male characters also get hate for shipwar reasons, but it’s usually a bit less dramatic, and it’s not usually couched in such offensive terms.

I have _absolutely_ read slash fic where female characters were written horribly _in that fic_, and some of it bothered me. Sometimes, it made me think the author had issues with women. But I wouldn’t be too quick to assume that general female character hate in random meta or headcanon posts is coming from there or that it says something about m/m fiction in general.

Relena on Gundam Wing used to get massive hate from everyone from the 1x2 shippers who wanted her out of the way to the dude fans who thought she wasn’t good enough for the lead. (Then we all saw more than 5 episodes of canon and were shocked that Relena is actually pretty great later. Who knew? Ah, the angst of being an anime fandom before shit was available…) It wasn’t any one thing.

People on tumblr who want to blame straight women who like BL probably either hate that BL is popular and want to yell at people to stop liking it _at all_, or else they themselves only like BL, slash, etc. and pay no attention to the parts of fandom that like het. And, hell, it’s not like the f/f-loving parts of fandom never bash the other lady who’s interfering with the OTP.

Disproportionate hatred of female characters, expressed poorly, is a common side effect of a sexist society. BL isn’t the important factor there.


	7. men don’t see women as people

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: May 8, 2019.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/184746430929/am-i-the-only-one-flabberghasted-by-people
> 
> This was part of a discussion of fans reacting poorly to Endgame because Steve didn't end up with Bucky. A lot of the discussion was around how unrealistic it was to expect that (in the sense that it would harm their profits). Personally, I think it's unrealistic because how they read subtext and how we read subtext are radically different.

The other thing to keep in mind is that romcoms and buddy movies have the same structure for one very simple reason: men don’t see women as people.

As a broad generalization, romance stories by and for women are about two soulmates finding each other. Two people who are partners, best friends, who match and make up for each other’s lacks in all the important ways come together. They’re often very different people, but on some deep level, they are equals. This is the structure of romance novels, romcoms, and a whole lot of fanfic.

Straight men love those stories too… _If they’re about friendship_. That’s every buddy movie ever. Buddies are very different people, but somehow, they complete each other. They have different talents, but they’re equals.

Romantic stories, through the lens of straight men, are about a hero passing a bunch of trials to prove he’s worthy to <strike>wield the magic sword</strike> bang the hot chick. She’s not a partner or a person: she’s a prop that indicates he won.

So straight men making things like MCU movies will _always_ write epic best friends/enemies/friends like Steve and Bucky in a way that reads as romantic if you look at women’s art. They almost _never_ intend to follow through. To them, _that’s not a romance_.


	8. Have they actually read any BL?

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: July 13, 2019.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/186252652799/i-remember-you-saying-a-lot-of-shitty-romance
> 
> This ask was not sent to me. I've cut out some discussion of HYD, shoujo, and how Westerners like to blame things on Japanese people being weird (and how this is racist and delusional).

> Anonymous asked: I remember you saying a lot of shitty romance tropes in BL exist because they are prevalent in mainstream romance fiction period and that immediately reminded me of "Boys over Flowers" where the MC ends up with the guy who attempted to rape her multiple times. Yeah. Like, I know most antis are ill informed and probably don't know series like that exist and were/are majorly influential to romance stuff as a whole but yeesh. Sigh.

Oh man, speaking of romance stories internationally, Harlequin experienced exactly the same evolution from Hana Yori Dango-style creepiness to that being out of fashion. Any history of romance novels will talk about the rapey, rapey 80s books and the shift some time in the 90s to more hero POV and more consent.

Though I suppose plenty of the people moaning about oldschool BL tropes have read the same number of Harlequins as BL manga: zero.


	9. Another day, another anti AGAIN

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: October 20, 2019.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/188482735754/people-purging-mm-content-has-always-been-about
> 
> But this one sure WAS sent directly to me.
> 
> Thanks, chucklefuck, for making me sound like I send myself strawman asks.

> Anonymous asked: people purging m/m content has always been about oppressing and erasing gay men like myself, not the creeps like you who think we’re your fucking fetishes, shut the fuck up, thank you and good fucking bye.

There’s an odd thing that happens on tumblr where people imagine that misogyny is fake and over and that gay men can’t be bigots themselves.

Purges of fandom m/m are _both_ about homophobia _and_ about a hatred of women expressing themselves.

I find it odd how so much of tumblr is fine with drag queens but not with slash.

I find it even odder how finding male characters appealing and writing about their feelings is taken as a “fetish”. It’s sadly obvious that the message is: “Women are not allowed to have sexual feelings AT ALL.”


	10. Slash drag -- someone else's meta

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: November 5, 2019.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/188839153334/fuckyeahfightlock-notagarroter
> 
> This is from a discussion of “Slash/drag: Appropriation and Visibility in the Age of Hamilton” by Francesca Coppa.

> I always like a well-considered “explainer” for slash and slashfic that I can share with naifs, but I am _forever_ dismayed that the explanations constantly–almost inevitably–take the form of comparing/equating slash culture to something men already do, as a way to say, “Look, it’s just like [X], so it’s valid!”
> 
> And this time it’s compared to yet another part of gay male culture that has recently become more acceptable to (though, I would argue, barely understood by) the mainstream, average jane/joe.
> 
> It’s not valid because it emulates or mirrors something men engage in. It’s valid because it exists. It has grown communities and academic discussion and entertainment and emotional/psychological healing. Women did that. Period.

I consider the _slash = drag_ thing less a justification and more a thought experiment.

Nowadays, on Tumblr, I see a lot of women worrying that they “appropriate” from gay men by liking slash. They’re genuinely twisted up inside about this idea. Those same women love and celebrate drag queens.

It’s like that “Would you say this awful thing to your friend? Well, then you shouldn’t say it to yourself either!” pep talk. It’s about pointing out underlying mental patterns and questioning them.

It’s not just silly men who need to be told we’re as valid as men: it’s quite a few of us too.

Drag isn’t understood by the mainstream, but it is _adored_ by queer studies types and m/m fanfic readers alike, and that is the audience that this book chapter is likely to reach.

The big question Halperin takes on is “If gay men now have positive and highly literal representation available to them, why do they still feel the need for drag and idolizing Joan Crawford and so on?”

The answer is that _allegorical_ representation is just as important as literal representation, and we shouldn’t dismiss it.

That message is highly relevant to slash writers.


	11. Guys write gross stuff: News at 11

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted: November 11, 2019.
> 
> https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/188978622186/reikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary

[reikiajakoiranruohoja](https://reikiajakoiranruohoja.tumblr.com/post/188910997674/for-all-the-talk-about-mary-sue-purges-and-all):

> For all the talk about Mary Sue purges and all that, for some reason there is rarely any discussion on the usenet and such fanfiction days. Which I think is a shame because it ignores such a vast amount of writing that would make people rethink the modern opinion on content and its quality.  
  
Basically, if you guys think modern problematic fics are frightening, OH BOY. Think of a time when internet was a vast abyss you just threw stuff in with no chance for anyone to hear about it. When people released their most darkest fantasies into that abyss.  
  
I am being so insulting, because this wasn’t about content being slightly uncomfortable or worth some heavy tagging. This was about some of the darkest content I’ve ever seen. If you want to check them out, search of Girls Scream Aloud, Agony in Pink, Celebrian, Yuffie’s Chocobo and Oscar (with Artemis.) Be warned, though, the content is RANCID and I don’t kink shame people.  
  
I bring these up, because I’ve not seen a fic on the level of those in modern times. Yeah, content might be very dark, but most authors are very aware of having an audience and tagging. Not so much in the past.

I mean, those of us who were there do talk about it, but most of Tumblr fandom got in during the Yahoo Groups era, the Livejournal era, or right here on Tumblr.

I still see fic with female celebrities being tortured or superheroines being de-powered and assaulted. This stuff, and its m/m equivalents, tend to be posted to textual porn sites. They are organized by kink and don’t call themselves fic archives even when they blatantly are.

For anyone who wants to see what erotica looks like outside of AO3, here are some of the places this content is found today.

Warnings for copious race kink, cuckolding kink, misogyny, bimbofication, forced feminization, transphobia, violent sexual assault, forced impregnation, bestiality, _extreme_ underage, snuff, cannibalism, necrophilia, and everything else that was ever problematic.

  * [**Alt.Sex.Stories Text Repository**](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.asstr.org%2Fmain.html&t=MTIxOGVjYTkxYTI5ZjAyZGZmZTJjNWM2ZmFhOTg0YjkxMGIxYWQ0OSxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1) \- The worst and best of Usenet porn! Lots of it is original, but there’s fic mixed in. Relive the 90s!
  * **[Nifty.org](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nifty.org%2F&t=ZjU5ZDM5N2I4MzM2MWVmZjM5MjBkMDg3NzBkM2I0YThmMjVlYWJiZSxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1) **\- m/m site started in 1992; also has other non-straight content; known for things like military gangbang stories
  * **[The Erotic Mind-Control Story Archive](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fmcstories.com%2F&t=Nzc4ZmQwNTUwOTI5MDFjZGY2ZmE5ZWZiMzQzNTdmZjI2MzY3MjBkNCxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- Content was originally from alt.sex.stories; used to contain fanfic until Warner Brothers got mad; lots and lots and lots of bimbofication and (of course) noncon
  * **[The Television Sex Stories Archive](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.t-s-s-a.com%2F&t=ODBlYzhmOTc5YWJiZDRjYzNkYTYwOWFmYTlhZjQ5YmY2MjI0OTA1NyxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1) **\- a fic archive that does not call itself one; lots of misogynist het rapefic
  * **[The Celebrity Sex Stories Archive](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.c-s-s-a.com%2F&t=NmQxNmI1NzlmYTIzMmVkNWQ4M2FiNzk0ZDIwOWFiMzA5NDRmMmUxYyxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- the same, but RPF
  * [**Superheroine Central**](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.superheroinecentral.com%2Ftext%2F&t=ZTlmMjk3ZTliYTk0MDMwY2Y5MTQ3MjQ1Mjg5NWYwYzdmY2M3YzgyOCxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1) \- paid visual porn site with a free text stories category full of superheroine in peril stories
  * **[Danger Babe Central](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dangerbabecentral.com%2Fxpage%2Fstories%2Findex.php&t=Y2I4OWE4YzIwMTNkNGM2YTA2NDMxOTY3NjYyM2UyNWYzZGE3ZWY1YixmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- similar, but more Lara Croft knockoffs
  * **[Literotica](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.literotica.com%2F&t=NWViOTBkNDgxZTQyNGJjYmI1ZDc0ZTBiNzIyY2MwMDhjNzlkY2Q5MixmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- User-submitted textual porn, some of it fanfic, quite a lot of it problematic; known for male gaze-y femdom porn, among many other things
  * **[Hentai Foundry](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hentai-foundry.com%2F&t=NWNkNzUxODgwNTU2ZTZkMGQzMTRiOTJiZDg5M2Y1MjU2ODEyMGQ1NixmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- Dirty art site that also has a lot of stories, including fic; if you want to read about a video game lady getting tentacles in places they were not meant to go, this is the site for you
  * **[Sexstories.com](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sexstories.com%2F&t=YzA0OWM5NDM5MDI5MWU1Zjg3MzRhYWI1NDk4Y2I0YWU4MzM3NDZmOSxmNW5WOGZBTA%3D%3D&b=t%3AF7RptIYdAO86KVsNGkj6aw&p=https%3A%2F%2Folderthannetfic.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188978622186%2Freikiajakoiranruohoja-for-all-the-talk-about-mary&m=1)** \- Textual porn reposted from all over (likely without the author’s permission); awash in misogynist rapefic, including in the fanfic section

I’m sure there are many, many more, especially in the heroine-in-peril genre, but those are some of the biggest, oldest, and most famous. I can’t exactly _recommend_ most of them, but they certainly put wank about Voltron teenagers in perspective.


End file.
